This was great. Mark has been on my radar but I registered some skepticism about tying fortification strongly with obesity. I’m open to the idea that there are many causes, this one just doesn’t rank highly for me. Love his work though and I completely agree that people like him and yourself play a vital role as generalists who can range widely to help tackle this complex topic. Most scientists have, by professional necessity, become very specialized.
One bit from Mark that I have trouble with is this:
“We also know that in a natural food environment, sweetness is indicative of simple sugars, carbohydrate energy and the experience in the mouth of fat equals energy. Now we live in a food environment where those things don't necessarily equal energy.
If you take a very dim view of the brain's intelligence, well, that's a good idea. Fool it. Make it think it's getting energy. But if it turns out the brain is smart, and it not only tracks what's coming in, but it's got a ledger; it also keeps track of what it got. Fooling the brain potentially becomes a very bad idea. Because then you're creating a situation where the brain is going, “I thought I was getting calories, and I didn't get them.”
I guess this might be true for diet sodas and some other snacks with artificial sweeteners, but lots of ultra processed foods have lots of real fat, sugar and salt, there’s little tricking going on, you’re getting the indicators of sugar, fat because that’s what’s packed into the food.
I still have strong priors that there’s something special with American diets — as they’re exported across the world those countries also get more obese and their ultra processed nature seems like a good bet as a primary culprit. I’ll think more on the rest of what Mark says in the interview. Congrats on the baby and moving to Paris!
Thank you for this kind reply. Good point on how many UPFs are loaded with real nutrients. Mark focused on calories in that comment, but I think his broader interest is in how, even processed foods that contain lots of real sugar, fat or salt, also have all this other stuff added that may mess with our innate nutritional wisdom (a cherry soda that has nothing to do with actual cherries, etc). It's an interesting idea that I also like to think about. I find personally, the less processed food I eat, the more inedible it becomes.
Julia--Congrats on the baby! This is a terrific interview. So glad you are doing these (I only have your Vox email. Is there another?) marion.nestle@nyu.edu
This was great. Mark has been on my radar but I registered some skepticism about tying fortification strongly with obesity. I’m open to the idea that there are many causes, this one just doesn’t rank highly for me. Love his work though and I completely agree that people like him and yourself play a vital role as generalists who can range widely to help tackle this complex topic. Most scientists have, by professional necessity, become very specialized.
One bit from Mark that I have trouble with is this:
“We also know that in a natural food environment, sweetness is indicative of simple sugars, carbohydrate energy and the experience in the mouth of fat equals energy. Now we live in a food environment where those things don't necessarily equal energy.
If you take a very dim view of the brain's intelligence, well, that's a good idea. Fool it. Make it think it's getting energy. But if it turns out the brain is smart, and it not only tracks what's coming in, but it's got a ledger; it also keeps track of what it got. Fooling the brain potentially becomes a very bad idea. Because then you're creating a situation where the brain is going, “I thought I was getting calories, and I didn't get them.”
I guess this might be true for diet sodas and some other snacks with artificial sweeteners, but lots of ultra processed foods have lots of real fat, sugar and salt, there’s little tricking going on, you’re getting the indicators of sugar, fat because that’s what’s packed into the food.
I still have strong priors that there’s something special with American diets — as they’re exported across the world those countries also get more obese and their ultra processed nature seems like a good bet as a primary culprit. I’ll think more on the rest of what Mark says in the interview. Congrats on the baby and moving to Paris!
Thank you for this kind reply. Good point on how many UPFs are loaded with real nutrients. Mark focused on calories in that comment, but I think his broader interest is in how, even processed foods that contain lots of real sugar, fat or salt, also have all this other stuff added that may mess with our innate nutritional wisdom (a cherry soda that has nothing to do with actual cherries, etc). It's an interesting idea that I also like to think about. I find personally, the less processed food I eat, the more inedible it becomes.
Julia--Congrats on the baby! This is a terrific interview. So glad you are doing these (I only have your Vox email. Is there another?) marion.nestle@nyu.edu